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During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
welcome to the credit crunch.
No really, unless you do what no designer I know of has ever done, communicate the true value of their work without resorting to money, well we always fall into this hole. That's the biggest problem, most people don't know what designers are *for* and thus employ them to do wallpaper jobs.
I won't do free work, but we were all amateurs once, some would say most of us still are. Beware the words 'true' 'pure' etc. cos there can lie closed minded snobbery. But those doing free work who are learning do fulfil 2 useful roles - 1) the client may get to understand the value of a professional and 2) the designer gets access to maybe a bigger job than before to practise on. Only problem with this is what happens with students - I'm an interactive designer so I've learned Director. Never hardly used it commercially though as all the multimedia students learn it and promptly undercut everyone else. Thing is, now they are learning Flash too I get to work on the stinking remains of their attempts to produce a professional job. Hopefully that client now learns that pro job != cheap. And that you can't learn 10 years Flash experience in 3 years part time ;-)
So I'm not really scared for my job, quality always wins out, and those giving freebies eventually stop and learn the true value of what they do.
welcome to the credit crunch.
No really, unless you do what no designer I know of has ever done, communicate the true value of their work without resorting to money, well we always fall into this hole. That's the biggest problem, most people don't know what designers are *for* and thus employ them to do wallpaper jobs.
I won't do free work, but we were all amateurs once, some would say most of us still are. Beware the words 'true' 'pure' etc. cos there can lie closed minded snobbery. But those doing free work who are learning do fulfil 2 useful roles - 1) the client may get to understand the value of a professional and 2) the designer gets access to maybe a bigger job than before to practise on. Only problem with this is what happens with students - I'm an interactive designer so I've learned Director. Never hardly used it commercially though as all the multimedia students learn it and promptly undercut everyone else. Thing is, now they are learning Flash too I get to work on the stinking remains of their attempts to produce a professional job. Hopefully that client now learns that pro job != cheap. And that you can't learn 10 years Flash experience in 3 years part time ;-)
So I'm not really scared for my job, quality always wins out, and those giving freebies eventually stop and learn the true value of what they do.
I'm always amazed that designers offering free - or "spec" - work to potential clients are then stunned to learn that the client doesn't see the value in charges for future work. Why should they? The will probably be able to get additional work free from other "designers."
As I often tell designers in my speaking engagements, "The only thing worse than a potential client who does not value the efforts of a professional graphic designer, is a designer who doesn't appreciate the value of their own time and work."
I will occasionally offer pro bono design services to grass-roots non-profit causes in which I truly believe - not the large ballet, opera or art organization that comes to me EXPECTING me to donate services. I will not work for any for-profit entity for free. Would they provide me free services or products if I walked in the door of their business and made such a request?
An inexperienced, amateur designer may feel the need to offer free services to a potential client to get the job or experience. Unfortunately, in most cases the client looking for something for free is going to get exactly what they have paid for in the process. Often those clients eventually find their way to someone like myself to have their identity, or other project, redesigned.
In many cases, there is a cost to be paid by a client who initially attempts to get a logo designed for free or at bargain basement rates - especially when they need to invest in the services of a professional, experienced designer. The "designer" offering free services may find it a major challenge to get clients to understand the value in any of their work in the future.
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives´s last blog post..The design firm name conundrum
I'm always amazed that designers offering free - or "spec" - work to potential clients are then stunned to learn that the client doesn't see the value in charges for future work. Why should they? The will probably be able to get additional work free from other "designers."
As I often tell designers in my speaking engagements, "The only thing worse than a potential client who does not value the efforts of a professional graphic designer, is a designer who doesn't appreciate the value of their own time and work."
I will occasionally offer pro bono design services to grass-roots non-profit causes in which I truly believe - not the large ballet, opera or art organization that comes to me EXPECTING me to donate services. I will not work for any for-profit entity for free. Would they provide me free services or products if I walked in the door of their business and made such a request?
An inexperienced, amateur designer may feel the need to offer free services to a potential client to get the job or experience. Unfortunately, in most cases the client looking for something for free is going to get exactly what they have paid for in the process. Often those clients eventually find their way to someone like myself to have their identity, or other project, redesigned.
In many cases, there is a cost to be paid by a client who initially attempts to get a logo designed for free or at bargain basement rates - especially when they need to invest in the services of a professional, experienced designer. The "designer" offering free services may find it a major challenge to get clients to understand the value in any of their work in the future.
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives´s last blog post..The design firm name conundrum
Hi Graham. My comment is sparked by another twitter entry you posted this morning regarding the general public understanding the concept of getting what they pay for. To me this ties in strongly with the post topic. As I understand it, true logo service, much as true design service of any nature involves quite a bit more than most people understand and maybe even appreciate.
We as designers know exactly what is involved in a true logo service because it is what we do. Years of training, developing skills, understanding design principles, interwoven with individual creativity and experience all contribute to the final product. I do not think the general public will ever understand the elegance and intricacies of typography, when to obey and when to push the limits on design principles, etc. but then again, that is our job.
Erik brought up an important point above regarding understanding the client's brand. I am a firm believer that the client’s brand / identity needs to be incorporated and evident in anything to do with the company, be it graphics, interiors, methods, etc. A "true logo service" in my mind goes hand-in-hand with the development of all of these elements. The logo, to me is a symbol of the brand: developed by a designer who is involved in or has a clear understanding of the purpose behind it.
I think it is important to educate clients that do not understand the elements and processes that go into logo development as well as the importance of a strong logo and brand. I have had to do this many times in both commercial interior design, branded environments, and graphic design. Unfortunately, some people will never understand the value of good design. These are typically the people in search of discounted and free design services. It has been my experience however, that these businesses are typically substantially less successful------design karma?? :)
Chris Rossi´s last blog post..Help me understand!!! Puuullllleeease!
Hi Graham. My comment is sparked by another twitter entry you posted this morning regarding the general public understanding the concept of getting what they pay for. To me this ties in strongly with the post topic. As I understand it, true logo service, much as true design service of any nature involves quite a bit more than most people understand and maybe even appreciate.
We as designers know exactly what is involved in a true logo service because it is what we do. Years of training, developing skills, understanding design principles, interwoven with individual creativity and experience all contribute to the final product. I do not think the general public will ever understand the elegance and intricacies of typography, when to obey and when to push the limits on design principles, etc. but then again, that is our job.
Erik brought up an important point above regarding understanding the client's brand. I am a firm believer that the client’s brand / identity needs to be incorporated and evident in anything to do with the company, be it graphics, interiors, methods, etc. A "true logo service" in my mind goes hand-in-hand with the development of all of these elements. The logo, to me is a symbol of the brand: developed by a designer who is involved in or has a clear understanding of the purpose behind it.
I think it is important to educate clients that do not understand the elements and processes that go into logo development as well as the importance of a strong logo and brand. I have had to do this many times in both commercial interior design, branded environments, and graphic design. Unfortunately, some people will never understand the value of good design. These are typically the people in search of discounted and free design services. It has been my experience however, that these businesses are typically substantially less successful------design karma?? :)
Chris Rossi´s last blog post..Help me understand!!! Puuullllleeease!
I want to reply to the question you've asked. What makes the difference between an amateur logo designer and an experienced one. As I was in the process of getting a logo designed (with a pretty low budget), I talked and worked with a couple (in my opinion) amateur designers.
Amateur designers (not only logo designers) don't really listen to your what you need and want. They usually just read your descriptions partly. And after they've come up with a few options, they don't listen to your questions or suggestions. They don't implant the changes you would like to see. Another thing I saw is that amateurs tend to take the easy route and come up with a logo without proper typography and a symbol/identity as simple as possible.
I haven't worked with an experienced logo designer yet, but in my opinion a logo designer is like any other designer. They work together with a client, listen to the client, they are creative and don't take the easy route. They like to challenge themselves and they always want the best for their client's business.
What do you think?
Ps. Oh, and because of the low budget, I decided to do the job myself, haha.
I want to reply to the question you've asked. What makes the difference between an amateur logo designer and an experienced one. As I was in the process of getting a logo designed (with a pretty low budget), I talked and worked with a couple (in my opinion) amateur designers.
Amateur designers (not only logo designers) don't really listen to your what you need and want. They usually just read your descriptions partly. And after they've come up with a few options, they don't listen to your questions or suggestions. They don't implant the changes you would like to see. Another thing I saw is that amateurs tend to take the easy route and come up with a logo without proper typography and a symbol/identity as simple as possible.
I haven't worked with an experienced logo designer yet, but in my opinion a logo designer is like any other designer. They work together with a client, listen to the client, they are creative and don't take the easy route. They like to challenge themselves and they always want the best for their client's business.
What do you think?
Ps. Oh, and because of the low budget, I decided to do the job myself, haha.
Daniel> I do feel your comment is a little off topic given the main purpose of the post. But on the flip side... I do totally value YOUR input Daniel, regardless of if I agree with it or not. ;0)
My post is about something entirely different, I just highlight his free logo design post as it was the primer for another topic altogether. I purposefully requested in the opening para that we don't discuss the merits of what he is offering. That's for another time. I tried to not make it some huge issue, but nonetheless, I am entitled to express my opinion as ofcourse you are, which you have done. Which is frankly more than a lot of people do... ;0)
If I do so then I know it's for public consumption and I relish the debates and arguments that start from these 'firey thoughts'. Other wise life is dull dull dull.
Too many people keeping too many thoughts and opinions to theme selves, to afraid to open them up to the daylight for fear that someone will shout them down.
If I am in a glass house, then it's my glass house to throw stones as I wish. If people want to join me they can, if they want to oppose me and throw the stones back, then they can.
Anyone, and I mean anyone who writes, talks about, explains, discusses anything in public is open to some form of criticism, constructive or otherwise.
That is exactly what I am looking for when i start this discussions, debates etc. One has to evoke some level of feeling in order to get anything back.
And anyway, he is getting more link love from me over this... :)
Daniel> I do feel your comment is a little off topic given the main purpose of the post. But on the flip side... I do totally value YOUR input Daniel, regardless of if I agree with it or not. ;0)
My post is about something entirely different, I just highlight his free logo design post as it was the primer for another topic altogether. I purposefully requested in the opening para that we don't discuss the merits of what he is offering. That's for another time. I tried to not make it some huge issue, but nonetheless, I am entitled to express my opinion as ofcourse you are, which you have done. Which is frankly more than a lot of people do... ;0)
If I do so then I know it's for public consumption and I relish the debates and arguments that start from these 'firey thoughts'. Other wise life is dull dull dull.
Too many people keeping too many thoughts and opinions to theme selves, to afraid to open them up to the daylight for fear that someone will shout them down.
If I am in a glass house, then it's my glass house to throw stones as I wish. If people want to join me they can, if they want to oppose me and throw the stones back, then they can.
Anyone, and I mean anyone who writes, talks about, explains, discusses anything in public is open to some form of criticism, constructive or otherwise.
That is exactly what I am looking for when i start this discussions, debates etc. One has to evoke some level of feeling in order to get anything back.
And anyway, he is getting more link love from me over this... :)
Graham I value your expertise but I must give you some advice, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
I understand it bothers you the designer in question is doing free logo design but the truth is, that is his prerogative.
His site never says he doesn't get paid for his work. Nor does it say he'll give a free logo to everyone. It's a contest, a marketing gimmick. Have you never reduced the cost of a project for a friend or non-profit, or just to close a deal?
I just think you should think of where the designer is coming from before casting him out like this.
If you feel that passionate then I'd suggest joining a group like http://www.no-spec.com/ and helping them evangelize their message.
Graham I value your expertise but I must give you some advice, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
I understand it bothers you the designer in question is doing free logo design but the truth is, that is his prerogative.
His site never says he doesn't get paid for his work. Nor does it say he'll give a free logo to everyone. It's a contest, a marketing gimmick. Have you never reduced the cost of a project for a friend or non-profit, or just to close a deal?
I just think you should think of where the designer is coming from before casting him out like this.
If you feel that passionate then I'd suggest joining a group like http://www.no-spec.com/ and helping them evangelize their message.
The post seems to assume that design happens in a "vacuum" + that designers are just here to whip up something on the quick based on superficial color preferences + direction. Any one who has designed or been a creative director knows this is a losing formula...
Great design doesn't just come from a talented designer. Great design starts with an intimate understanding of an entrepreneur's brand, business goals and audience.
The idea that something of quality can be tossed together without any substantial input from the business owner demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of the creative process in my opinion.
Those of us who work in the creative industry often wonder how it is that so many business owners are so misled as to what they should expect from their branding and design folks and wonder why they should come to a reputable firm over the college student down the street.
There's a difference between a consultative creative process and "commoditized" design. In my experience, if you take something that's free (or nearly free) you tend to get what you pay for.
Great discussion starter!
-Erik.
Erik Wolf´s last blog post..Green is the new “green”
The post seems to assume that design happens in a "vacuum" + that designers are just here to whip up something on the quick based on superficial color preferences + direction. Any one who has designed or been a creative director knows this is a losing formula...
Great design doesn't just come from a talented designer. Great design starts with an intimate understanding of an entrepreneur's brand, business goals and audience.
The idea that something of quality can be tossed together without any substantial input from the business owner demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of the creative process in my opinion.
Those of us who work in the creative industry often wonder how it is that so many business owners are so misled as to what they should expect from their branding and design folks and wonder why they should come to a reputable firm over the college student down the street.
There's a difference between a consultative creative process and "commoditized" design. In my experience, if you take something that's free (or nearly free) you tend to get what you pay for.
Great discussion starter!
-Erik.
Erik Wolf´s last blog post..Green is the new “green”
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved. Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good. To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing. I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved. Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good. To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing. I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn) Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here. I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen. What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks. This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn) Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here. I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen. What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks. This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point. Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post: True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand. What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost. What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy. I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point. Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post: True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand. What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost. What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy. I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic. I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you. If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one. The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies. Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question. Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'. But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider. His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush. And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'. Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them. This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic. I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you. If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one. The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies. Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question. Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'. But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider. His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush. And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'. Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them. This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy. First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay. In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that. He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't. Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy. First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay. In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that. He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't. Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why. Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why. Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is. Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together. The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path. I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is. Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together. The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path. I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment. Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you? If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL. I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business. In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free. For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business. All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture. Am I wrong?
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment. Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you? If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL. I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business. In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free. For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business. All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture. Am I wrong?
welcome to the credit crunch. No really, unless you do what no designer I know of has ever done, communicate the true value of their work without resorting to money, well we always fall into this hole. That's the biggest problem, most people don't know what designers are *for* and thus employ them to do wallpaper jobs. I won't do free work, but we were all amateurs once, some would say most of us still are. Beware the words 'true' 'pure' etc. cos there can lie closed minded snobbery. But those doing free work who are learning do fulfil 2 useful roles - 1) the client may get to understand the value of a professional and 2) the designer gets access to maybe a bigger job than before to practise on. Only problem with this is what happens with students - I'm an interactive designer so I've learned Director. Never hardly used it commercially though as all the multimedia students learn it and promptly undercut everyone else. Thing is, now they are learning Flash too I get to work on the stinking remains of their attempts to produce a professional job. Hopefully that client now learns that pro job != cheap. And that you can't learn 10 years Flash experience in 3 years part time ;-) So I'm not really scared for my job, quality always wins out, and those giving freebies eventually stop and learn the true value of what they do.
welcome to the credit crunch. No really, unless you do what no designer I know of has ever done, communicate the true value of their work without resorting to money, well we always fall into this hole. That's the biggest problem, most people don't know what designers are *for* and thus employ them to do wallpaper jobs. I won't do free work, but we were all amateurs once, some would say most of us still are. Beware the words 'true' 'pure' etc. cos there can lie closed minded snobbery. But those doing free work who are learning do fulfil 2 useful roles - 1) the client may get to understand the value of a professional and 2) the designer gets access to maybe a bigger job than before to practise on. Only problem with this is what happens with students - I'm an interactive designer so I've learned Director. Never hardly used it commercially though as all the multimedia students learn it and promptly undercut everyone else. Thing is, now they are learning Flash too I get to work on the stinking remains of their attempts to produce a professional job. Hopefully that client now learns that pro job != cheap. And that you can't learn 10 years Flash experience in 3 years part time ;-) So I'm not really scared for my job, quality always wins out, and those giving freebies eventually stop and learn the true value of what they do.
I'm always amazed that designers offering free - or "spec" - work to potential clients are then stunned to learn that the client doesn't see the value in charges for future work. Why should they? The will probably be able to get additional work free from other "designers." As I often tell designers in my speaking engagements, "The only thing worse than a potential client who does not value the efforts of a professional graphic designer, is a designer who doesn't appreciate the value of their own time and work." I will occasionally offer pro bono design services to grass-roots non-profit causes in which I truly believe - not the large ballet, opera or art organization that comes to me EXPECTING me to donate services. I will not work for any for-profit entity for free. Would they provide me free services or products if I walked in the door of their business and made such a request? An inexperienced, amateur designer may feel the need to offer free services to a potential client to get the job or experience. Unfortunately, in most cases the client looking for something for free is going to get exactly what they have paid for in the process. Often those clients eventually find their way to someone like myself to have their identity, or other project, redesigned. In many cases, there is a cost to be paid by a client who initially attempts to get a logo designed for free or at bargain basement rates - especially when they need to invest in the services of a professional, experienced designer. The "designer" offering free services may find it a major challenge to get clients to understand the value in any of their work in the future. Jeff Fisher LogoMotives´s last blog post..The design firm name conundrum
I'm always amazed that designers offering free - or "spec" - work to potential clients are then stunned to learn that the client doesn't see the value in charges for future work. Why should they? The will probably be able to get additional work free from other "designers." As I often tell designers in my speaking engagements, "The only thing worse than a potential client who does not value the efforts of a professional graphic designer, is a designer who doesn't appreciate the value of their own time and work." I will occasionally offer pro bono design services to grass-roots non-profit causes in which I truly believe - not the large ballet, opera or art organization that comes to me EXPECTING me to donate services. I will not work for any for-profit entity for free. Would they provide me free services or products if I walked in the door of their business and made such a request? An inexperienced, amateur designer may feel the need to offer free services to a potential client to get the job or experience. Unfortunately, in most cases the client looking for something for free is going to get exactly what they have paid for in the process. Often those clients eventually find their way to someone like myself to have their identity, or other project, redesigned. In many cases, there is a cost to be paid by a client who initially attempts to get a logo designed for free or at bargain basement rates - especially when they need to invest in the services of a professional, experienced designer. The "designer" offering free services may find it a major challenge to get clients to understand the value in any of their work in the future. Jeff Fisher LogoMotives´s last blog post..The design firm name conundrum
Hi Graham. My comment is sparked by another twitter entry you posted this morning regarding the general public understanding the concept of getting what they pay for. To me this ties in strongly with the post topic. As I understand it, true logo service, much as true design service of any nature involves quite a bit more than most people understand and maybe even appreciate. We as designers know exactly what is involved in a true logo service because it is what we do. Years of training, developing skills, understanding design principles, interwoven with individual creativity and experience all contribute to the final product. I do not think the general public will ever understand the elegance and intricacies of typography, when to obey and when to push the limits on design principles, etc. but then again, that is our job. Erik brought up an important point above regarding understanding the client's brand. I am a firm believer that the client’s brand / identity needs to be incorporated and evident in anything to do with the company, be it graphics, interiors, methods, etc. A "true logo service" in my mind goes hand-in-hand with the development of all of these elements. The logo, to me is a symbol of the brand: developed by a designer who is involved in or has a clear understanding of the purpose behind it. I think it is important to educate clients that do not understand the elements and processes that go into logo development as well as the importance of a strong logo and brand. I have had to do this many times in both commercial interior design, branded environments, and graphic design. Unfortunately, some people will never understand the value of good design. These are typically the people in search of discounted and free design services. It has been my experience however, that these businesses are typically substantially less successful------design karma?? :) Chris Rossi´s last blog post..Help me understand!!! Puuullllleeease!
Hi Graham. My comment is sparked by another twitter entry you posted this morning regarding the general public understanding the concept of getting what they pay for. To me this ties in strongly with the post topic. As I understand it, true logo service, much as true design service of any nature involves quite a bit more than most people understand and maybe even appreciate. We as designers know exactly what is involved in a true logo service because it is what we do. Years of training, developing skills, understanding design principles, interwoven with individual creativity and experience all contribute to the final product. I do not think the general public will ever understand the elegance and intricacies of typography, when to obey and when to push the limits on design principles, etc. but then again, that is our job. Erik brought up an important point above regarding understanding the client's brand. I am a firm believer that the client’s brand / identity needs to be incorporated and evident in anything to do with the company, be it graphics, interiors, methods, etc. A "true logo service" in my mind goes hand-in-hand with the development of all of these elements. The logo, to me is a symbol of the brand: developed by a designer who is involved in or has a clear understanding of the purpose behind it. I think it is important to educate clients that do not understand the elements and processes that go into logo development as well as the importance of a strong logo and brand. I have had to do this many times in both commercial interior design, branded environments, and graphic design. Unfortunately, some people will never understand the value of good design. These are typically the people in search of discounted and free design services. It has been my experience however, that these businesses are typically substantially less successful------design karma?? :) Chris Rossi´s last blog post..Help me understand!!! Puuullllleeease!
I want to reply to the question you've asked. What makes the difference between an amateur logo designer and an experienced one. As I was in the process of getting a logo designed (with a pretty low budget), I talked and worked with a couple (in my opinion) amateur designers. Amateur designers (not only logo designers) don't really listen to your what you need and want. They usually just read your descriptions partly. And after they've come up with a few options, they don't listen to your questions or suggestions. They don't implant the changes you would like to see. Another thing I saw is that amateurs tend to take the easy route and come up with a logo without proper typography and a symbol/identity as simple as possible. I haven't worked with an experienced logo designer yet, but in my opinion a logo designer is like any other designer. They work together with a client, listen to the client, they are creative and don't take the easy route. They like to challenge themselves and they always want the best for their client's business. What do you think? Ps. Oh, and because of the low budget, I decided to do the job myself, haha.
I want to reply to the question you've asked. What makes the difference between an amateur logo designer and an experienced one. As I was in the process of getting a logo designed (with a pretty low budget), I talked and worked with a couple (in my opinion) amateur designers. Amateur designers (not only logo designers) don't really listen to your what you need and want. They usually just read your descriptions partly. And after they've come up with a few options, they don't listen to your questions or suggestions. They don't implant the changes you would like to see. Another thing I saw is that amateurs tend to take the easy route and come up with a logo without proper typography and a symbol/identity as simple as possible. I haven't worked with an experienced logo designer yet, but in my opinion a logo designer is like any other designer. They work together with a client, listen to the client, they are creative and don't take the easy route. They like to challenge themselves and they always want the best for their client's business. What do you think? Ps. Oh, and because of the low budget, I decided to do the job myself, haha.
Daniel> I do feel your comment is a little off topic given the main purpose of the post. But on the flip side... I do totally value YOUR input Daniel, regardless of if I agree with it or not. ;0) My post is about something entirely different, I just highlight his free logo design post as it was the primer for another topic altogether. I purposefully requested in the opening para that we don't discuss the merits of what he is offering. That's for another time. I tried to not make it some huge issue, but nonetheless, I am entitled to express my opinion as ofcourse you are, which you have done. Which is frankly more than a lot of people do... ;0) If I do so then I know it's for public consumption and I relish the debates and arguments that start from these 'firey thoughts'. Other wise life is dull dull dull. Too many people keeping too many thoughts and opinions to theme selves, to afraid to open them up to the daylight for fear that someone will shout them down. If I am in a glass house, then it's my glass house to throw stones as I wish. If people want to join me they can, if they want to oppose me and throw the stones back, then they can. Anyone, and I mean anyone who writes, talks about, explains, discusses anything in public is open to some form of criticism, constructive or otherwise. That is exactly what I am looking for when i start this discussions, debates etc. One has to evoke some level of feeling in order to get anything back. And anyway, he is getting more link love from me over this... :)
Daniel> I do feel your comment is a little off topic given the main purpose of the post. But on the flip side... I do totally value YOUR input Daniel, regardless of if I agree with it or not. ;0) My post is about something entirely different, I just highlight his free logo design post as it was the primer for another topic altogether. I purposefully requested in the opening para that we don't discuss the merits of what he is offering. That's for another time. I tried to not make it some huge issue, but nonetheless, I am entitled to express my opinion as ofcourse you are, which you have done. Which is frankly more than a lot of people do... ;0) If I do so then I know it's for public consumption and I relish the debates and arguments that start from these 'firey thoughts'. Other wise life is dull dull dull. Too many people keeping too many thoughts and opinions to theme selves, to afraid to open them up to the daylight for fear that someone will shout them down. If I am in a glass house, then it's my glass house to throw stones as I wish. If people want to join me they can, if they want to oppose me and throw the stones back, then they can. Anyone, and I mean anyone who writes, talks about, explains, discusses anything in public is open to some form of criticism, constructive or otherwise. That is exactly what I am looking for when i start this discussions, debates etc. One has to evoke some level of feeling in order to get anything back. And anyway, he is getting more link love from me over this... :)
Graham I value your expertise but I must give you some advice, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." I understand it bothers you the designer in question is doing free logo design but the truth is, that is his prerogative. His site never says he doesn't get paid for his work. Nor does it say he'll give a free logo to everyone. It's a contest, a marketing gimmick. Have you never reduced the cost of a project for a friend or non-profit, or just to close a deal? I just think you should think of where the designer is coming from before casting him out like this. If you feel that passionate then I'd suggest joining a group like http://www.no-spec.com/ and helping them evangelize their message.
Graham I value your expertise but I must give you some advice, "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." I understand it bothers you the designer in question is doing free logo design but the truth is, that is his prerogative. His site never says he doesn't get paid for his work. Nor does it say he'll give a free logo to everyone. It's a contest, a marketing gimmick. Have you never reduced the cost of a project for a friend or non-profit, or just to close a deal? I just think you should think of where the designer is coming from before casting him out like this. If you feel that passionate then I'd suggest joining a group like http://www.no-spec.com/ and helping them evangelize their message.
The post seems to assume that design happens in a "vacuum" + that designers are just here to whip up something on the quick based on superficial color preferences + direction. Any one who has designed or been a creative director knows this is a losing formula... Great design doesn't just come from a talented designer. Great design starts with an intimate understanding of an entrepreneur's brand, business goals and audience. The idea that something of quality can be tossed together without any substantial input from the business owner demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of the creative process in my opinion. Those of us who work in the creative industry often wonder how it is that so many business owners are so misled as to what they should expect from their branding and design folks and wonder why they should come to a reputable firm over the college student down the street. There's a difference between a consultative creative process and "commoditized" design. In my experience, if you take something that's free (or nearly free) you tend to get what you pay for. Great discussion starter! -Erik. Erik Wolf´s last blog post..Green is the new “green”
The post seems to assume that design happens in a "vacuum" + that designers are just here to whip up something on the quick based on superficial color preferences + direction. Any one who has designed or been a creative director knows this is a losing formula... Great design doesn't just come from a talented designer. Great design starts with an intimate understanding of an entrepreneur's brand, business goals and audience. The idea that something of quality can be tossed together without any substantial input from the business owner demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of the creative process in my opinion. Those of us who work in the creative industry often wonder how it is that so many business owners are so misled as to what they should expect from their branding and design folks and wonder why they should come to a reputable firm over the college student down the street. There's a difference between a consultative creative process and "commoditized" design. In my experience, if you take something that's free (or nearly free) you tend to get what you pay for. Great discussion starter! -Erik. Erik Wolf´s last blog post..Green is the new “green”
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
During the Open Studios Art Tour in Santa Cruz, CA, nearly 300 artists open their studios to the public and part of the requirement for participating is that the artist HAS to show the process. Many times, I've read comments from people saying they had NO IDEA how much work is involved in creating art. Many people think that creativity springs, full-blown, from an artist's hands - a literal gift from God - so that little "real" work is involved.
Certainly there are business folk who want branding on the cheap and there always will be, but I believe ignorance is at the root of most people's apparent mendacity, exacerbated by "designers" who have no education or training, but who have "always been creative." If one has never been taught to tell good work from bad, one may continue to purchase bad work under the illusion that it is good.
To reduce the numbers of "pain-in-the-ass" clients, it is in every designer's best interest to educate potential clients. Even though I have no intention of becoming a printer, it is in my best interest as a consumer to understand the printing process and how that affects timing and pricing.
I work to be an educated consumer and I prefer to work with people who don't mind answering my questions. In particular, I prefer partners I can work with long-term; those who hear me out and address my viewpoints without labeling them as "stupid."
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
Graham, I think we have quite a bit of preaching to the choir here, we all know that a logo/branding is an incredibly valuable asset to any organization. I think I understand exactly why you wrote this post. This Johnny-come-lately designer is perpetuating the fallacy of design as decoration, a logo as a stamp, as a literal "cattle brand". You know. This whole mindset may have it's roots in cattle ranching and the wild wild west (www, hhhmnnn)
Think about..... Bill Q. Rancher decides to hustle up himself a cattle business, he buys the land, builds the barn, runs the fences, etc, etc, ooooI need to brand the bovines!!! He runs out and has his initials quickly twisted in metal in the blacksmith's shop. There's no real design process to it. No sketching, no research into his family name, the quality of the soil or the salient qualities of the geographic region. Just, "CLETUS!" rastle me up a brand to stick on my cows! And boom in one afternoon, no sorry in a few hours it's done. Mind you there may be geniuses out there that can do the whole "logo design" process lickity split. I do not doubt that. But lets stick with the chunky part of the bell curve here.
I have no probs with this "designer" doing his thing to rustle up page views. That's his thing, but do not pretend to be a professional when you are clearly not! Do not dilute the delicate and intricate craft that is branding and identity design down to pixel pushing.... in Photoshop!!! Mind you if a designer decides to offer "True Logo Design Services" for free then go on right ahead! It may be part of a bigger strategy it may not be. I have done numerous pro-bono jobs for non-profits in my 10 years. I have put up with my fair number of clients that equate the value of design to chicken squat. It will always be there. But what "our friend" here is offering is an incredible detriment to our industry... the ugly truth is that it will continue to happen.
What do we do? Do good work, always. Deliver the goods, whether we charge top dollar to that Daddy Warbucks client we have been eyeing or if we do a favor to Johnny Appleseed for that child's cancer logo. Do good work and better work will come. Watch how long this experiment of his lasts for...He will get the worst clients to fall of the turnip truck looking for spiffy hi-grade work and will want a million tweaks.
This makes me want to start my own experiment...stay tuned.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
I know this isn't just about your own opinions, however, I was simply asking why you are irritated enough to write a blog post about it. He has no experience and states that he doesn't and someone who goes to a guy who doesn't specialize on this subject and asks for a free logo is someone I wouldn't ever want as my clients. There are sites that do logos for $50 bucks and if a client would rather pay nothing then even pay $50 at a place that says they specialize in it and has a portfolio at least? C'mon, do you really think anyone that asks that guy for a logo is going to pay any decent amount of money for a logo if they wouldn't pay $50? That's my point.
Now to answer some questions you had asked in your blog post:
True Logo Service(n): A company or person who specializes in creating a graphic to represent a clients company and/or products or brand.
What should come in a package? Basically a cheap package would be 1 logo concept and high resolution jpg/pngs in multiple sizes. For higher paying clients give them a vector file, high rez files and as many concepts they want to pay for. In all cases however, I think the logo needs to have sketches and it needs to mean something. There has to be a connecting between this graphic and the company and what they stand for. I think even the cheapest client is entitled to 1 revision for free anything after should cost.
What's the different from an amateur and a pro? I don't think anything more than how good your logos are. I know quite a few people I would never hire for logos even though they have been doing it for 20 or more years where I would pay someone who was just out of college or maybe high school that actually understands what a logo does for a company. I look at their philosophy.
I look at it like sports. Any team will sign up the best player whether he is in high school, college, or the amateurs. I don't ever look at a designer who has been doing it for X amount of years. I look for a designer who know what he doing and does it well.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Oscar-> Please re-read my post. This post is not about my own personal opinion on the case of the free logo design. I do state that I don't wish for it to become a discussion, except that there is a natural progression of discussion from this topic.
I am entitled to my ideas and thoughts to which I have expressed, as have you.
If this post was just me ranting and raving about this chap then fair enough. But it's not, i use it to highllight a further topic, a more important and interesting one.
The topic that has seen many people write some insightful and meaningful replies.
Please get over the first paragraph and focus on the post and thoughts in question.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including you, the moment you write, post, rant or praise about anything on any blog you are by the very nature opening yourself up for people to comment back either negatively or positively. If this chap is so sensitive or has so many people looking out for him he should, in my opinion, re think what he posts about, and keep to subject that he knows about or can 'put up and shut up'.
But for your information. Yes, it bothers me because his post belittles and cheapens a valuable commodity. I have managed to woo clients from the darkside to 'get' clients that initially felt they would NEVER pay for a logo, to actually reconsider.
His argument that they would never probably pay for a logo is utterly naive and frankly, insulting to many people, clients who just need to have certain things explained, rather than just painted with the same brush.
And given a chance to realise that it needn't cost the earth for a great logo and that it's often false economy to expect otherwise. I would even say OScar, that your own thoughts on this are 'naive'.
Dont assume that non paying clients who take on a free logo and cheap and freeloading. They merely have not had the truth about logo design explained to them.
This is where Franklin IS damaging genuine and trustworthy designers.
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
Don't get me wrong. I have gone to school for design and I do it now and I have worked with just awful logos and designs. I understand the difference between free logos and logos that had cost a million dollars. I do understand this, but I guess I am not so sure why you are so frustrated with this guy.
First off, not everyone gets one and second he says he has only been doing it for about 6 months and even worse he uses Photoshop to do them (people in the future asking "can I make this bigger?"). They get what they pay.
In response to Robyn McIntyre "they wont understand why" is just stupid. Even if I don't know what a tool is, let's just say a air compressor for fun, i can bet money that a $4,000 one will be better than a $19.99 on a TV infomercial. You have to be *really* stupid to not get that.
He has no experience, doesn't lie that he has any, they are free, and it's basically a draw on who gets one. They *will be* awful, I can bet money on it, so why does it bother you? Do you even want a client who thinks that "a basic logo only takes about a day"? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Could you ever imagine Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Burger King, etc ever Googling "free logos"? No, and I bet anyone trying to get a free logo or a cheap one is going to end up being a pain in the ass client :)
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, Graham. What I'm getting so far is that clients don't understand the process & knowledge needed to create a logo that really reflects their brand and the root of this seems to lie in the fact that clients don't really understand how important a good logo/brand can be to their business. Without this understanding, they come to believe that they require only a something graphically interesting to slap on their site, stationery, and collaterals. Yes, they'll get what they pay for, but they won't understand it hurts, rather than helps, their brand or why.
Would it help to tell potential clients how much companies like Coca-Cola spend on their logos or show them examples of good logos versus bad and why? Would that make them into lifetime clients or be too much trouble?
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
I've talked about similar things on my own blog. I think the issue lies in the public's lack of understanding of what "branding" really is.
Spec sites, and other sites that offer cookie-cutter logos and rejected/generic "brands" often help propagate the idea that you just need a logo and things will come together.
The important part of the traditional design process, maybe the most important, is the conversation that goes on to explain why the logo should look a certain way, how the logo will help be the company's introduction and what it will say and become once its attached to a consistent package and presentation method. The conversation about how to effectively use that introduction, that graphic element that is your company's face to the public, this is the branding conversation that is lost when you go outside of the true logo design service path.
I think that's lost on those outside the industry. Logo design is more than just the end result, the part leading up to it is 10 times more important.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
True story: phone rings "hi, I'm XYZ we met at a networking event recently. I really love your work and I want you to design a logo for my startup company, how do we get started?" Me: "the first step is to schedule a meeting so I can learn more about your company. When can we meet?" Great, a new project, meeting is scheduled for the following week. Fast forward to meeting, everything is great until it comes down to the cost and process of a logo design. At which point the person informs me that he's not signing a work aggreement nor giving me an advance until he sees a few concepts so that he knows he will actually like anything I produce. As delicately as I can I try to bring the point across that he's asking for spec work and that I don't work for free. I also remind him that he's seen my portfolio which he (in his words) was impressed with. End of story, I walked away from this "opportunity" even though after thinking about it for a week he called to inform me he decided to work with me but he would not pay more than $500 for the design. After all, he could get it cheaper on the internet, so I should really be grateful he wanted to hire me.
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
Imagine: a guy offers medical services to people for free. He has no real medical training. He's worked with and read about real doctors and what they do. He even has some medical equipment.
Would you trust him to diagnose your ailment? Would you trust him to prescribe the correct remedy? Would you trust him to operate on you?
If you would see such a "doctor" only because he wasn't charging for services, you're a fool. The reason we pay medical personnel so much is because we think what they do is important, and that it's important they have the training, experience and equipment to do it WELL.
I admit this metaphor is a stretch. But consider: for a business, branding is an important part of success. A well-designed logo is an important part of a good brand. Poor planning or execution in either case could ruin or severely stunt the growth of your business.
In order to "diagnose" the problems with a brand that need to be solved, or to "prescribe" the correct solution, one needs training and experience in doing so. This doesn't come cheap, much less free.
For a person to offer these services without price shows clearly they simply don't understand the importance of the role they are assuming. For the "doctor," it could mean the life of a patient. For the free "designer," the success of a business.
All that to say this: a true logo designer understands the importance and value of his role, and also understands how what he does interacts with the bigger branding picture.
Am I wrong?
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